Ben Pollack: This Great Drummer Really Sends Us!

Hal Smith: Brother Kevin, in our last column we agreed to write something about the “Daddy Of ‘Em All”—Ben Pollack. Besides his wonderful talent as a drummer, he was a notable bandleader whose groups included such luminaries as Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, Jack Teagarden, Matty Matlock, Fud Livingston, Jimmy McPartland, Muggsy Spanier, Harry James, Irving Fazola, and many, many more. He was also responsible, indirectly, for the formation of the Bob Crosby Orchestra.

We could take up more than one article with Ben Pollack’s biography (and discography), but for that information, let’s refer our readers to Richard Sudhalter’s Lost Chords and also the fantastic seven-volume CD set of Pollack’s recordings on the Jazz Oracle label. And to maximize our available space, let’s start this article by talking about Ben Pollack’s first recordings—with the great New Orleans Rhythm Kings.

Pollack was only 20 when he recorded Lil Hardin’s song “Sweet Lovin’ Man” with the NORK on Mar. 12, 1923—before King Oliver’s Creole Jazz Band record of the same song! The drumming is a little hard to hear on this side and due to the limitations of the recording techniques, Pollack was confined to playing woodblocks and choke cymbal. However, I hear a steady 4/4 pulse on the blocks, unlike the heavily syncopated style that other drummers employed. Also, he really lays into the offbeats on the choke cymbal on the last chorus. He is smacking that cymbal; something that you don’t hear on a lot of other records from the same time period. What do you hear on this debut recording?

Kevin Dorn: First, let me just say that it’s great to be back doing another article with you, Brother Hal, and it’s especially nice to be talking about Ben Pollack, as you were the one who introduced me to many of my favorite recordings of his!

When I listen to this recording with the NORK (and it really is amazing how young Pollack was!), I’m struck by how streamlined and modern the feel is. That’s something I’ve always noticed about Ben Pollack and a lot of it is in the 4/4 pulse you mentioned. I think he was one of the early drummers to really get that kind of groove going. He wasn’t a sound effects kind of drummer, he was a drummer who really played with a beat and swung the band. I think he was one of the earlier people to approach the instrument that way. The strong backbeat he plays on the choke cymbal is another example of a strong, driving beat. He wasn’t a “legit” or studio drummer playing jazz, he was a real jazz drummer!

I’m very interested if you find a similar quality in his playing.

HS: Yes I do! From the time he first picked up a pair of sticks, Pollack was apparently not interested in playing anything other than jazz. And that determination really helped propel him to a spot in one of the most infuential bands of the 1920s—the New Orleans Rhythm Kings. I’m glad that you hear the 4/4, even if it is just on the woodblocks. Interestingly, Oscar Brown Jr.—host of the “Jazz Scene U.S.A.” television series—quoted Pollack as saying “I never played two-beat; always four.”

With Pollack on drums, the NORK made the first classic jazz recordings of “That’s A Plenty,” “Shim-Me-Sha-Wabble,” “Weary Blues,” “That Da-Da Strain,” “Wolverine Blues” and “Tin Roof Blues” on March 12 and 13, 1923 for Gennett Records in Richmond, Indiana. Though we can’t hear the drumming as well as we would like, it always makes the band move along smartly. However, there are a couple of sides where it is possible to hear something besides the woodblock and choke cymbal. “Maple Leaf Rag” is one. We hear woodblock on the first two strains, then when the ensemble plays the trio, there is a “galloping” rhythmic pattern played on a mystery percussion instrument! To me, it doesn’t sound like a cymbal or block. Maybe it’s a muted tack-bottom tom-tom or possibly a snare drum with a rubber pad over the top head (as seen in the famous photo of the Wolverines in the Gennett studio). Do you have any idea what Ben Pollack might have been playing on?

KD: I remember that quote from Jazz Scene U.S.A. I think Pollack was very proud to have helped influence the very basics of jazz drumming and rightfully so!

Your guess is as good as mine as far as the mystery sound on “Maple Leaf,” but having just listened to it several times I would go with a rubber pad (or some other type of muffling) on a snare drum. It’s frustrating that we’ll never be certain about some of these things. Whatever he’s playing on, Pollack’s driving beat is definitely in evidence again. That particular section is really rocking!

You’re choosing some great recordings, Hal!

HS: Thank you kindly. Let’s listen to one more side from the same session as “Maple Leaf.” This is a very unusual treatment of Jelly Roll Morton’s “Wolverine Blues.” The Rhythm Kings may very well have heard Morton demonstrating the piece at the Melrose Publishing house, or King Oliver’s Creole Jazz Band playing it at the Royal Gardens in Chicago. But neither of those versions would have included a “funeral march” introduction, quotes from “Yankee Doodle,” the modulation from “Milneburg Joys” and a “Whoopee-Hey-Hey” vocal break!

And there is yet another “mystery percussion instrument.” I think this may be a choke cymbal muted in some way (Towel? Glove? Oven Mitt?) It sounds to me like Pollack was playing rhythm with one stick and muting the cymbal (if that’s what it was) with his other hand, whereas the drumming on “Maple Leaf” sounds like he was using both sticks. Ultimately, we may need a “Drummers’ Roundtable” with Josh Duffee and Nicholas Ball to figure out exactly what we’re hearing on “Wolverine!” Any guesses?

KD: Some sort of muted choke cymbal sounds right to me and I agree that it sounds like a one-handed rhythm here, whereas he’s definitely using both hands in that section we discussed on “Maple Leaf.” Josh, Nick…help us out! Getting back to Ben Pollack’s approach to swinging a band, I like the way he plays the same rhythm throughout the entire clarinet solo on “Wolverine Blues.” Since the drums are very exposed there, a lot of drummers would probably change up the pattern more. But again he seems more interested in providing a driving beat and the repetition adds to that effect, in my opinion. He also gets a beautiful tone out of the cymbal throughout this recording.

HS: That’s a good point about playing the same rhythm through a whole solo. Coincidentally, Baby Dodds did the same thing behind Brother Johnny on Jelly Roll Morton’s record of “Wolverine,” recorded four years later. Hmmmmm.

Speaking of Jelly Roll Morton…Pollack’s last recording session with the New Orleans Rhythm Kings (July, 1923) included Morton on piano—playing three of his own compositions plus “Sobbin’ Blues.” Young Bix Beiderbecke attended the recording session, but some of the Rhythm Kings thought he “wasn’t ready” to add his voice to the band! That is no doubt one of the great losses in the history of jazz. Despite that, Pollack’s drumming is excellent on all the sides, but also harder to hear since banjo and brass bass were added to the rhythm section and the sonic space for drums was reduced even more.

In 1924, Pollack recorded under his own name—a test record of “Red Hot.” Once again, it is an acoustic record and the drumming is difficult to hear except for a break that sounds like it might have been played on choke cymbal. The following year he played alongside Muggsy Spanier and Volly DeFaut in 1925 on two sides recorded by the “Stomp Six.” As on the other acoustic recordings, the choke cymbal sounds great but that’s the only part of the drum set that is audible.

By 1926, Pollack was leading his own orchestra and was recording for Victor. Let’s take a listen to “He’s The Last Word,” which has some excellent solos by Fud Livingston (sax), Benny Goodman, Earl Baker (cornet), Glenn Miller (channeling Miff Mole on trombone)…and some very interesting rhythmic patterns on the choke cymbal!

KD: Great point about Baby Dodds with Jelly Roll Morton, Brother! That’s why it’s so much fun doing these articles with you; I always learn something!

Speaking of learning from you, “He’s The Last Word” is one of the recordings you first hipped me to, probably close to 20 years ago! I remember you saying at the time that Ben Pollack’s choke cymbal playing here is similar to what Fred Higuera (another drummer I know we both want to discuss at some point) played years later on Bob Scobey’s recording of “South.”

I think Pollack really shows us how much variety you can get out of one basic sound, in this case the choke cymbal. He plays it throughout the recording, but with so many subtle variations to the rhythm and the length of the notes— how much he’s letting the cymbal ring out. Again, I feel we’re very much hearing a JAZZ drummer; not someone “tapping along” on a choke cymbal, but someone really using it to drive a band. The feeling of a backbeat is always there and there is a timeless quality to the groove. I think you could take the rhythms he’s playing on the choke cymbal and play them on the ride cymbal and it would absolutely work. It’s the same sensibility and in fact we’ll hear him do that soon on other recordings. I think that’s a really important lesson.

So far, we’ve heard Ben Pollack play on the woodblock, the choke cymbal and the snare drum (or something!!), but his feel is consistent throughout. I find that younger drummers who are perhaps new to traditional jazz really struggle with maintaining a consistent feel when playing different parts of the drum set. I’ve heard drummers almost sound like classical percussionists when playing the woodblock, then suddenly become bebop drummers when they go to the ride cymbal, and then sound like they’re in a military band when they play press rolls on the snare drum. The feel keeps changing and it can be very jarring.

I think Ben Pollack beautifully demonstrates that the part of the set that you’re playing on is not the most important thing and does not create a feel in and of itself. It’s a color and the color can change. But the feel, the groove, whatever musical sensibilities one has, those should stay consistent. It should sound like the same drummer, whatever part of the set you’re playing on. That’s what I hear not only in Ben Pollack’s playing, but in the playing of all my favorite drummers.

I’m curious when you first heard this recording and how Ben Pollack’s playing here has influenced you.

HS: I’m still learning too! Sometime in the 1980s the late Frank Powers made a cassette for me of the Ben Pollack Victor sides. Of course the choke cymbal playing caught my attention right away. Not long after that I was listening to the 1951 Bob Scobey records for GOOD TIME JAZZ and heard that same rhythm pattern on the choke cymbal being played by Fred Higuera! The GTJ liner notes mentioned that three of Fred’s favorite drummers were “Dodds, Singleton and Pollack.” The first two were obvious choices, but after listening closely to Pollack’s records, I started to notice quite a few of his licks turning up in Fred’s playing! I will look forward to our future discussion regarding Mr. Higuera…

Meanwhile, you are spot-on concerning the variety of sounds and rhythms that Ben Pollack drew out of the choke cymbal on “He’s The Last Word.” There is a landmark recording from 1928 that we need to talk about, but before that—let’s listen to another recording that is full of hot choke cymbal almost all the way through: “Baby,” by a slightly smaller Pollack ensemble (under the pseudonym “Jimmy McHugh’s Bostonians”).

KD: I’m looking forward to that Fred Higuera discussion! This is just beautiful playing by Pollack on “Baby” and I think what I said about the last recording applies here as well. Pollack is covering all the bases, just with this one cymbal. If we imagine a drummer swinging on the ride cymbal, playing a backbeat on 2 and 4 on the snare drum and throwing in different fills and rhythms around the set…well, Ben Pollack is getting all of those effects with just the choke cymbal. He swings the whole band with that cymbal.

I think if people compare his choke cymbal playing to that of some other drummers of the same general time period, the difference in his approach will be clear. This was still the early days of the drum set and not everyone was using it in this way, to set a solid rhythmic foundation for the band, but Pollack certainly was. Going back to what Fred Higuera said about his influences, I hear a similar quality in Dodds and Singleton, so it makes sense those were his big influences (although each had their own unique way of doing things, of course). Do you have any idea what size cymbal Pollack was using?

HS: I’m still learning too! Sometime in the 1980s the late Frank Powers made a cassette for me of the Ben Pollack Victor sides. Of course the choke cymbal playing caught my attention right away. Not long after that I was listening to the 1951 Bob Scobey records for Good Time Jazz and heard that same rhythm pattern on the choke cymbal being played by Fred Higuera! The GTJ liner notes mentioned that three of Fred’s favorite drummers were “Dodds, Singleton and Pollack.” The first two were obvious choices, but after listening closely to Pollack’s records, I started to notice quite a few of his licks turning up in Fred’s playing! I will look forward to our future discussion regarding Mr. Higuera…

This next side, by Benny Goodman’s Boys, marks a turning point for cymbal playing in a jazz band as well as giving us an opportunity to hear Ben Pollack “off the leash.” On the opening ensemble chorus we hear Pollack on woodblock, but with hot tom-tom accents thrown in and a wonderful 4/4 pulse on the bass drum! Next, he plays great press rolls behind Goodman (on baritone sax) and then…RIDE CYMBAL behind Vic Breidis’ piano solo! This is the first recorded example of the familiar technique that every jazz drummer uses right up to the present day. The shimmering cymbal sound continues through a half-chorus by Fud Livingston on tenor sax and a full solo by cornetist Jimmy McPartland. As a bonus, we also hear Chicago-style tom-tom “explosions” and the “stop-and-go” beat. This side really validates George Wettling’s description of Pollack as “a real Chicago drummer.” “Room 1411” is a keeper, wouldn’t you say?

KD: Without question, and this is another recording that you first turned me onto! Before that, the earliest recording of a ride cymbal that I knew of was Gene Krupa in 1930 with Bix Beiderbecke on “I’ll Be A Friend With Pleasure.” This recording predates that one by two years and should clear up the misconception many people have that drummers weren’t playing the ride cymbal in the 1920s. In fact, Baby Dodds said he was doing it live with King Oliver in 1923 and George Wettling confirmed this in an interview. But to be the first drummer doing it on a recording is truly historic and is something Ben Pollack rarely gets credit for.

I couldn’t agree with you more: Ben Pollack is absolutely on fire here and that 4/4 bass drum really drives this recording. As we’ve noticed, he always had that 4/4 quality in his playing, even when they couldn’t record the bass drum. But here it’s on full display. I love all the accents he puts on beat 4, especially when he accents beat 4 of every other bar under Benny Goodman’s solo. Between the groove that Ben Pollack gets, the fills he plays and where he puts the accents, this is just classic Chicago-style drumming!

HS: It sure is! You can hear why Jimmy McPartland said of Ben Pollack “When he got behind you, he’d really make you go—yes, he’d send you.” McPartland also described how Pollack and Benny Goodman would sometimes play with just clarinet and drums—with Pollack using wire brushes on the bass drum—for chorus after chorus. Don’t we wish that had been captured on record (or film!)?

By the end of the 1920s, Ben Pollack decided to abdicate the drum set in favor of directing the band with a baton and crooning. Young Ray Bauduc took his place at the drums on the bandstand and in the recording studio. There would not be any more records of Pollack swinging out on the drums until the mid-1930s. He did some wonderful drumming on those records, but I would like to save those for a future discussion. In the meantime, how about an article on Fred Higuera, who we mentioned earlier? I absolutely love his drumming and it would be a lot of fun to discuss his records with you…

KD: That’s a great quote from McPartland! If Ben Pollack was playing drums, you know the band was going to swing. Imagine what it would be like to hear those extended Pollack/Goodman duets? The mind boggles.

I look forward to continuing this conversation on Ben Pollack, but I think an article on Fred Higuera is a great idea! He’s another unique player who doesn’t get anywhere near the amount of recognition that he deserves. Let’s do it!

HS: As Joe Sullivan would say, “Can DO!” But before we close this chapter of the Ben Pollack story, I would like to encourage the readers to check out the “Ben Pollack” page written by our British friend, the great drummer Nicholas Ball, for his “Drums In The Twenties” website.

Now, on to the Bay Area and a rendezvous with Mr. Higuera.

Hal Smith is an Arkansas-based drummer and writer. He leads the El Dorado Jazz Band and the Mortonia Seven and works with a variety of jazz and swing bands. Visit him online at halsmithmusic.com.

Kevin Dorn has been one of the busiest and most highly regarded drummers in swing and traditional jazz for many years. Find him online at www.kevindorn.com.